Thierry Ribaux: ICRC`s regional presence and financial capabilities  have been significantly increased

ArmInfo.The head of the Yerevan office of the International Committee of the  Red Cross, Thierry Ribo, in an interview with ArmInfo, spoke about  the organization's current activities in the region, new projects,  work on prisoners of war, interaction with Russian peacekeepers and  much more.

Mr. Ribaux, you have headed the ICRC office in Yerevan during very  difficult times - the new type of coronavirus pandemic and the  fighting in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict zone have increased the  volume of work. Could you tell us what projects are currently being  implemented by your organization and whether it is planned to attract  new projects, if so, in which areas?

First of all, I would like to remind you that our presence in the  region of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict dates back to 1992. Then we  launched our activities through our offices in Yerevan and Baku, as  well as the mission in Nagorno-Karabakh. Since then, our stay in the  region has been uninterrupted. We carry out humanitarian activities  aimed at eliminating or reducing the consequences of the  Nagorno-Karabakh conflict for civilians.

However, it is natural that the recent escalation of the armed  conflict has led to an increase, including in our work in the region.   I would like to note that our main activity at the initial stage of  the escalation was related to the support of people who are directly  in the escalation zone and affected by it. For example, in  Nagorno-Karabakh, on the one hand, we were engaged in supporting the  relevant health care structures, on the other hand, through local  structures, we provided food and hygiene kits for the people who  remained there. In Armenia, we, together with our partner, the  Armenian Red Cross Society, have focused on supporting displaced  persons who have come to Armenia in search of safety. We also  supported structures such as educational institutions and health  systems that needed to provide relevant services without delay.

Since the stage of the state of emergency and our corresponding  response is now over, we are focusing more on the situation in the  regions of Armenia, assessing the needs of the civilian population  and considering possible projects that can be implemented there. In  particular, we are talking about the need to support the communities  that are located in the immediate vicinity of the  Armenian-Azerbaijani border. If for a long time our programs in this  regard were aimed at the Tavush region, now we have paid attention to  other regions, in particular, Syunik, Vayots Dzor, Gegharkunik. And  now we are working with the local population and communities to  understand the needs of the residents of these regions, in order to  provide targeted support.

One of the main elements of our work is also to pay attention to the  families that have sheltered displaced persons as a result of the  escalation. In cooperation with the Armenian Red Cross Society, we  are helping these families to cope with the costs they have faced  because they have nobly opened their doors to families from  Nagorno-Karabakh. Today, there is already a specific program of  assistance in this area, which we are implementing in cooperation  with the Ministry of Social Labor of the Republic of Armenia and the  Armenian Red Cross Society. In the future, we also plan to cooperate  with the Armenian Red Cross Society to resolve a number of issues  that may be faced by families of displaced persons in Armenia. One of  the most important areas of our activity is related to people who are  considered missing. And in this situation, I note that since  mid-November 2020, the ICRC, along with Russian peacekeepers, has  participated on a daily basis in operations to search for missing  persons and remove the remains of the deceased, including providing  the necessary technical support and providing advice on the  identification of the remains. We believe it is incredibly important  that families have the opportunity to receive answers about the  whereabouts of their loved ones as a result of the fighting, as well  as to be able to bury the dead with dignity. But at the same time, we  understand that the process has not yet been completed and, based on  this, the issue of the parties ' obligations on the issue of missing  persons becomes relevant. We are ready to help improve the  legislation in this regard in favor of families who will face the  problem of missing relatives.

As you know, the ICRC has quite a lot of experience in helping to  identify the remains of missing persons. We know that the ICRC has  created a data bank to facilitate the identification of the remains  of the missing from the first Karabakh War. Taking into account the  above, and taking into account the fact that the Minister of Health  of the Republic of Armenia reported that more than two hundred  remains will most likely not be able to be identified due to their  serious damage, can we expect that the ICRC will assist the Armenian  side in this matter?

You are absolutely right that in this region, the ICRC has been  dealing with the issue since the 90s of the last century, and there  is a certain process and dialogue with the authorities of the parties  involved in order to draw attention to this issue. Unfortunately, we  have to state that there is no serious progress in this direction.   But, nevertheless, we try to keep our finger on the pulse in order to  continue to remind the authorities of the parties involved of their  obligations in relation to missing persons, including since the 90s.

As for this situation, the identification process is certainly  extremely complex in itself. It begins with the collection of remains  in places where there were recent fighting. We, along with Russian  peacekeepers, participate in the search and evacuation operations  conducted by Armenian and Azerbaijani teams. In this process, as a  rule, there are also ICRC forensic experts who, as the remains are  discovered and evacuated, advise the teams on how to collect them,  because the correct, attentive attitude to the process at this stage  leads to an increase in the chances of identification already in the  morgue or the relevant forensic institutions. Naturally, the first  and most important step is the proper and decent treatment of the  remains at the collection sites.

The second stage is already a question of the capabilities and  competence of the centers of forensic expertise. And in this  situation, the ICRC also provides material and technical support. We  are in constant contact with the medical examination center in  Yerevan. Discussions are underway on the procedures that the center  uses to identify the bodies of the victims. We have provided a number  of recommendations to improve the chances of achieving maximum  identification accuracy. Of course, we know that there are a certain  number of remains that are difficult to identify, and perhaps some of  them will not be able to be identified, for example, if we are  talking about burned remains. However, the process is still ongoing.   I would also like to point out the rather decent opportunities of the  Armenian centers. At the same time, I would also like to draw your  attention to the fact that the ICRC does not have its own  laboratories on the ground, and our specialists who specialize in  this field provide advice and support. But there are such specialized  institutions in other countries, and we are discussing the  possibilities of cooperation with the Armenian authorities both in  this area and in terms of the prospects for strengthening and  developing professional skills in this area within the country. We do  not want to replace Armenian specialists, but, on the contrary, to  improve their skills, so that Armenia will have its own experts who  will be fully prepared for the identification of remains, including  those who went missing during the fighting in the 90s, when such an  opportunity arises.

What does the ICRC think about Azerbaijan's purposeful delaying of  the search for the bodies of the dead, which in turn complicates the  identification process?

Yes, indeed, the longer the process takes, the more difficult the  identification is. But here it is necessary to consider the context  of the conditions for conducting operations to search for and  retrieve the bodies of the victims. As you know, the search began  almost immediately after the signing of the ceasefire declaration.   There were situations when the process stopped for a while. However,  the conditions under which search groups operate are quite complex.   The entire area is literally filled with unexploded ordnance. ICRC  mine clearance specialists are also involved in the search, advising  the parties on how to safely evacuate the remains. You also need to  understand that this is a considerable territory and the process  takes time. Naturally, in the first weeks it was easier to carry out  operations, and they were more effective. Now it is more difficult to  do this for obvious reasons. Teams have to return to the same places  several times, perform operations over and over again, and sometimes,  after working all day, they come back empty-handed.

We also attach great importance to the ongoing cooperation and  interaction between the parties, with the participation of our  specialists and Russian peacekeepers. This question is also in the  constant field of our attention. We understand that all this may seem  like an easy process from the outside. We also understand what it is  like, unfortunately, for the families of the missing, who have been  in the dark for so long. However, the process is really complicated  and . often, in addition to everything, the weather conditions also  create interference.

Given the role of the ICRC as a neutral intermediary, would you like  to know whether the organization currently has access to persons  under the jurisdiction of Azerbaijan, especially those who are  classified by the Azerbaijani authorities as "mercenaries" and  "terrorists"? What information do the ICRC receive through its  channels from Azerbaijan in terms of the condition of our prisoners  and their conditions of detention?

As for those detained in connection with the Nagorno-Karabakh  conflict, I would like to note that the ICRC has been visiting them  for more than two decades. And at this stage, we also continue to  visit the detained persons in Azerbaijan. I will not comment publicly  on issues related to the treatment of detainees, as this is part of  our confidential dialogue with the authorities responsible for the  detention of these people. However, I would like to point out the  need for the exchange of family-related information. This is also an  important part of our work within the ICRC's mandate. We consider it  very important to maintain communication between the detainees and  their families. Naturally, a lot of information is exaggerated on the  topic of the number of persons held in Azerbaijan, but the ICRC is  not entitled to disclose data on the number, since this is also part  of our confidential dialogue with the authorities. We receive  information about the persons who are being held mainly from their  families, who contact us in connection with the alleged information,  as well as from the authorities, who can inform us about the presence  of a person on the other side - military or civilian. We systematize  the data obtained and do everything possible to make sure that the  detained persons are in the party, to be able to monitor the  conditions of their detention, treatment, and health status. All  these issues are in the center of our attention, we are in a fairly  active dialogue with the relevant party on this issue, although the  rinformation about the results is closed and not subject to  disclosure.

As for the activities of other organizations in the field, they have  their own mandate of activity. In their own way, they try to provide  information to the extent that they can provide it. This is their  right and responsibility. From this point of view, the ICRC is  certainly not the most open organization for the media regarding  issues related to prisoners of war and detainees, since the lion's  share of the activities carried out is not public and is within the  framework of a strictly confidential dialogue.

Do I understand correctly that the detainees are now deprived of the  opportunity to communicate with their families, as it was in the old  days?

No, of course, we can help people keep in touch with each other. This  continues even now, as we visit people in Azerbaijan and there is an  opportunity to provide them with communication with their relatives -  this can be letters, calls or oral messages through the ICRC. But,  most importantly, this opportunity is provided to them now.

People in general may underestimate the value of family news. For the  family, it is just a matter of getting news from their relatives and  loved ones who are unknown to them somewhere-it is worth a lot. Just  to get word that he's alive and well, that everything is in order, is  of great importance to a family in the dark.

What would you say about the labels that the Azerbaijani side puts on  the Armenian prisoners and prisoners of war, calling them  "terrorists", how correct and acceptable is this in your opinion,  especially from the point of view of international law?

As for the terminology regarding the status of detainees, this is  always the prerogative of the relevant authorities. And the actual  assignment of this or that status is part of their responsibility. On  the other hand, it is also the prerogative of the authorities who  have detained people in connection with the conflict to try them for  possible crimes. In principle, this is provided for by international  humanitarian law and is not a violation of it. We, the ICRC, of  course, do not go into discussions in the public space, but issues  related to the status are discussed without fail, remaining within  the framework of a confidential dialogue with the relevant  authorities. Of course, the issue of status is extremely important  rand we do not neglect it in any way, but all considerations on this  issue are confidential - this is part of the huge work that we carry  out as part of our mission.

I would also like to say a few words about the process of returning  prisoners of war and detained civilians. A certain number of them  have been returned to Armenia and Azerbaijan recently. The ICRC was  not involved in this process, with a few exceptions, when, as part of  our work and the involvement of the Russian side, a female civilian  was returned to Lebanon.

As for the interpretation of international humanitarian law, it is  absolutely normal that in addition to the ICRC, a third party can be  involved in the process, as in this situation, Russia. From our side,  we usually visit people until the decision is made to transfer them  to their homeland. Then our employees visit them and on their  return-to provide support if necessary.

During his visit to Moscow last year, the head of the ICRC, Peter  Maurer, announced his intention to expand the organization's  activities in the region, taking into account the aggravation of the  conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. What stage is this process at?

We have certainly and quite seriously increased our regional  presence, not only in terms of the capabilities of our staff, but  also in terms of the types of competence. In addition, we have also  increased the financial capacity of the ICRC delegations in Yerevan  and Baku and the mission in Nagorno-Karabakh. And if before the  latest escalation, our total budget for the region did not exceed  about 15 million Swiss francs, now about 47 million francs are  included in the budget for 2021. This, in turn, gives us the  opportunity to respond adequately and fulfill the tasks that we set  for ourselves as a humanitarian organization. It is also important to  note that working with the population to eliminate and reduce the  humanitarian consequences of the conflict is primarily the  prerogative and responsibility of the parties concerned. And we, as  an international organization, can support these efforts, especially  in those areas where we can benefit - this is the issue of prisoners  of war and detainees, and the problem of missing persons, and so on.   I would also like to point out that we have also increased the number  of our offices in Armenia - now, in addition to the Yerevan  delegation, we have opened sub-offices in Goris and Ijevan.

Since you have repeatedly mentioned the Russian peacekeepers. I would  like to know how the ICRC's interaction with the peacekeepers is  developing, are there any difficulties or obstacles in establishing  contacts?

Here we are working in a new environment with the presence of Russian  peacekeepers and in new realities that require increased coordination  and coherence in the direction, for example, related to operations to  search and recover the remains of the dead. The ICRC was engaged by the Armenian and Azerbaijani sides as an impartial and neutral humanitarian organization to facilitate this process, and since Russian peacekeepers are also involved, it turns out that four elements are involved in this important mission. And in this regard, as I have already noted, we are in daily contact. In addition, our dialogue with the Russian peacekeepers takes place within the framework of programs to provide humanitarian assistance to the population in Nagorno-Karabakh. As you know, the Russian side, through the peacekeeping contingent, provides considerable assistance to the local population. And we are in close contact, including in order to complement the work, making support more targeted and effective.

Thank you, Mr. Ribaux, for this interesting conversation!