ArmInfo.In an interview with ArmInfo, Michal Patryck Sadlowski, an expert on the countries of the former USSR, a lecturer at Warsaw University, founder of the G. Shershenvich Institute of Oriental Law Foundation, comments on the geopolitical results of the 44-day war.
The 44-day war, which resulted in the signing of a trilateral statement, undoubtedly had a broad geopolitical context. Please, share your vision of the role of Russia, Turkey, the United States and the European Union in this war. Which of the centers of power, in particular, became the main beneficiary of the bloodshed with the participation of Armenians and Azerbaijanis?
I think that Russia, Turkey and personally the President of Azerbaijan Ilham Aliyev: Russia retained its presence in the region and significantly increased its influence over Yerevan and Baku. And in the foreseeable future, Moscow has enough tools to significantly influence Armenia, Artsakh and the authorities in Baku. In the short term, Russia has many variations for this, especially in comparison with its potential that has been dwindling in recent years. In this light, from now on, it will undoubtedly be very difficult to decide something in Artsakh without Moscow, while, for Ilham Aliyev, in particular, without Turkey as well. The President of Azerbaijan, perhaps, now looks like a winner in the eyes of many Azerbaijanis. However, in reality, this is a bitter victory for Azerbaijan.
But for Aliyev himself, the most important thing is power, and now he has received new foundations for legitimacy. He can now be compared to his father. And in the culture of Azerbaijan it's very important. As regards Turkey, everything is quite complicated. First, Russia officially allowed Turkey to enter the South Caucasus. For what? Because it is much weaker than the West and perhaps with Turkey it will be easier for Russia to sort out its contradictions with NATO. At the same time, there was no precedent when Russia, together with the NATO country, draws a map of the world and everyone just watch it and does nothing.
May it be that Moscow is dragging Turkey into some of its new projects? Or maybe all this was already inevitable? Indeed, for 26 years, Turkey has been constantly increasing its influence in Azerbaijan, and it had to somehow be pulled out of there. Including, by demonstrating to Baku that Turkey has become a big problem for it. We must not forget that Moscow was well aware and understood that Turkey's influence in Azerbaijan was growing, and this process shoul have somehow been slowed down. This is also an important issue. Russia does not want to lose Azerbaijan. This is clearly visible. And this is one of the main tasks of Russian foreign policy in the Caucasus.
Judging by the results of the war, Turkey's participation in this war in one form or another, and the final point set by Russia, Artsakh has become another arena of geopolitical confrontation between Moscow and Ankara. And the long-term talks in Ankara between representatives of the Foreign Ministry and the Defense Ministry of Russia and Turkey once again demonstrated the complexity of the partnership between the presidents of Russia and Turkey. In this light, is it possible to state that in Artsakh Erdogan's neo-Ottoman project collided with the first rudiments of the practical implementation of Putin's project on the actual reincarnation of the Soviet Union?
I don't think Russia has a plan to revive the Soviet Union. Despite the mistakes made by Vladimir Putin, for example, in Ukraine, being a very clever politician, he clearly realizes that there is no return to the Soviet past. This ideology no longer exists. But on the other hand, Russia wants to remain an empire. It strives to remain a full-fledged heir to the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union in the sector of external influence and territories. That is why Russia cannot afford to lose its influence on Yerevan and Baku. Until that point of view in the Kremlin is changed, Russia will hold on tightly in the region.
The South Caucasus is the gateway to the south of Russia. And Moscow, of course, strives for Armenia to remain exclusively in the zone of Russian influence. So yes, Turkey and Russia met in Artsakh, but they have been meeting in the region for many years and now it is time for Moscow to demonstrate the limits of its own zones of imperial influence and to outline the boundaries of Russian interests for Turkey. And the war in Artsakh is part of this complex process. It is important to note that Russia in the future will have big problems in the post-Soviet space: people who were born under the Soviet Union will no longer be the elite of the former republics. And Russia is quite worried about it. Israel's participation in the war for Artsakh was expressed not only in the 44-day supply of arms to Azerbaijan, but also in the supply of instructors. Why, in your opinion, apart from the purely financial side, are the Israelis interested in Azerbaijan. And what role does Azerbaijan's now expanded neighborhood with Iran play in this interests?
In general, Azerbaijan is a good, just excellent partner for Israel. It has money, pays well and buys weapons, which, at the same time, can be tested immediately. So to speak: < right off the bat >. And of course, Iran can be criticized in Baku. And the issue of Iran occupies a very important place on the Israeli- Azerbaijani agenda. I think that only a very stupid politician would refuse to use this opportunity. This is geography. At the same time, Baku can talk with Washington through Israel. To the extent that would not lead to Moscow's indignation. After all, Jews are everywhere and Baku knows this.
Does the actual loss of Artsakh by Armenia contain prospects for new opportunities for Armenia in terms of foreign policy orientation, as happened in 2008 with Georgia? Or will the linkage with Russia grow even more?
Perfectly understanding the complexity of the current situation in Armenia, I believe that the outcome of the war is a chance for Yerevan. In my opinion, the Armenian elite should focus on creating a modern, strong state. It must be understood that there is no place and time for a state of the nineties model in Armenia. If Armenia wants to survive in this ultra-difficult place, than it must think from this perspective: It should uncompromisingly create strong bodies of administration, local government and the army; build a civil society, in order to slow down the emigration of people from the country, to raise the regions; develop IT. Now Armenia must look at itself from the outside. And, of course, there is the issue of the Diaspora, I think it is necessary to define a new model of cooperation between the Diaspora and Armenia as a state, because now Armenia cannot learn all the best from Armenians from all over the world. I think that Armenia did not use the potential of the Diaspora during the conflict either. Defeats always happen, and as strange as it may sound, this is a normal phenomenon in history and politics. Poland, for example, lost the Second World War. We lost a lot of people and territories then.
Then the Soviet Union decided our internal issues. But you have to live and work. Especially considering that for many years Armenia has practically played a big game with the big powers of the region and the world. It can be proud of this, but as of today it's already in the past. Many Armenians believed that Artsakh would simply be theirs forever. I think this is a classic mistake of all countries that have achieved great success in international politics. And if Armenia understands this mistake, being at the same time moderately proud of the successes of the past, then everything, God willing, will be fine. Armenia is a country of specialists in geopolitics.
Armenia has many opportunities, but I understand that there are also many restrictions. In general, I think that the best solution for Baku and Yerevan would be a peaceful division of territories, not a war: regions to Azerbaijan, and the former NKAO and a safe corridor to Armenia. And what did Azerbaijan achieve as a result of the war? Entire regions have been destroyed, heavy losses, and above all a vague geopolitical situation. At the same time, Aliyev can now be in power for a very long time. Nevertheless, I think it is necessary to somehow work to convince Baku that the conflict is not in the interests of Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Maybe Armenia somehow needs to start talking with both Turkey and Azerbaijan? And if they don't meet halfway, then this will become an important message for Europe. We, too, are beginning to look closely at Turkey, and a lot of issues are dissatisfying for us. Especially considering that Turkey is a NATO country. Geopolitically, not everything is bad either. If there is no Armenia, then there is no Russia in the Caucasus either. The whole question is, does Russia understand this? Armenia is undoubtedly an excellent ally. The whole question is, who should understand this? Moscow or Yerevan? At the same time, even taking into account various options, Yerevan should also have normal relations with Moscow, and this is an important task for Armenia. Even at the expense of the West, you have to be honest in this issue.
Now the US and EU do not have one solid concept of policy towards the Caucasus. There was an election crisis in the United States. Europe has serious problems with Covid-19 and structural problems in the EU, especially budget related ones. So, the West, to some extent, forgot about the Caucasus. There are also processes in the direction of combating religion in the EU countries. And for me it is painful to watch the indifference to the defense of Armenia as a Christian country. Europe simply looked at the tragedy of Armenia, at the destruction of its heritage. An example is France and Germany, which for many years fought with the traditions of Europe, and now for many the traditions of Christianity do not matter. But this is a big mistake. Armenians are our family and we shouldn't abandon it.
If there is no Armenia in the Caucasus, then in the cultural sense, in the sense of the system of values, there will be no Europe here either. Our borders will shrink. Many in Europe, especially in Poland, mistakenly think that they just need to support Turkey to fight against Russia. I personally doubt that in the future Turkey will play the role of an exclusively rival to Russia. On the other hand, I think that Armenia was unable to promote itself correctly, especially after the Velvet Revolution. Armenia should have a reasonable and clear position, there should be a clear proposal so that we in Europe know what Armenia expects from us. And what can Armenia offer us. Policies that rely solely on human rights grants are bad policies. And I can clearly see this in the example of Polish-Armenian relations. Everything seems to be fine, but there is not enough specifics, the purpose of these relations is not visible. And here, especially now, we need a conversation between our diplomats and politicians. Western diplomats are also to blame for often saying what Armenians or Azerbaijanis wanted to hear in Yerevan and Baku. As a result, the conflict only worsened. Another thing is that Armenians and Azerbaijanis, in turn, often did not want to listen to the advice of our experts, ambassadors and politicians.
The trilateral statement formalized the results of the war, but by no means the final settlement of the conflict, in fact, sidelining the rest of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chair countries: France and the United States. Paris has already reacted to the Russian-Turkish initiatives with two parliamentary resolutions recognizing the independence of Artsakh. And, apparently, this process will still find its continuation. How do you see the final settlement of the conflict and do you see it at all?
I think that from the point of view of history, the conflict between Armenians and Azerbaijanis was inevitable due to the young age of your statehood after the First World War. You simply did not have time to figure it out for yourself, to figure out your relations with the Azerbaijanis. Poland then had 20 years of independence, we had the opportunity to fight for our borders. Armenia and Azerbaijan had communism and control from Moscow. There was no freedom at all. So there was some kind of statehood, but there was no independence. Therefore, the conflict and war for Artsakh in the period from 1988 to 2020 were inevitable. And all the victims were not in vain. All of them are important and they all had their own purpose, their own destiny. Don't forget about them. This is the salt of this earth. For me, this conflict is generally very important, because it is clearly evident in Artsakh that international law does not have a basis solely for one interpretation or understanding.
The Armenian people have also demonstrated their righteousness. They demonstrated the impossibility of referring exclusively to the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan after 1991 and that there are other arguments and a different reality. And finally, the Caucasus is the border of different worlds and centers of power. And, unfortunately, if the rivalry and struggle between them continues, the small countries will have to get involved in these conflicts in order to survive. But maybe this is the main issue for Baku and Yerevan today? Therefore, I think that it can be difficult to reach the final one. But you have to try.