Thursday, September 14 2023 11:00

ArmInfo.Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan gave an interview to POLITICO Europe. The full  transcript of the interview is presented below.

Question: Mr. Prime Minister, thank you for the interview. It's a  pleasure to be able to talk to you, despite the difficult  circumstances in which we find ourselves, and the global community  looking at what is happening in Armenia, Azerbaijan and also Nagorno  Karabakh. Over the last few days we have seen a large number of  reports of both Azerbaijani and Armenian troops squaring off against  each other across the border. There is talk of significant  Azerbaijani build-up along the border with both Armenia and Nagorno  Karabakh, and I want to ask how close we are right now to a new  conflict.

Answer: Because Azerbaijan has started the accumulation of forces  along the border of the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Armenia  shall also take certain measures in order to defend itself. But I  think that the EU civilian monitoring mission in the Republic of  Armenia, which is conducting monitoring mission along the border,  they can record that the Republic of Armenia has no intention for  escalation, and it's Azerbaijan that has started to bring its central  forces towards the border with Armenia and also the entire line of  contact with Nagorno Karabakh. In such a situation, unfortunately, it  is not possible exclude the scenario of escalation, and the solution  is that the forces that have been mobilized should be taken back to  their bases. Armenia is ready to do it.

Question: But at the same time the involvement of Washington and  Brussels as mediators gave hope that peace has never been closer. Do  you think that peace has never been closer?

Answer: As you know, indeed, in my opinion very serious developments  have taken place in the negotiation process. If we try to understand  the peak of the seriousness of these negotiations, I must say that it  is the agreements achieved between Armenia and Azerbaijan that our  countries do mutually recognize each other's territorial integrity:  86.600 kmý for Azerbaijan and 29.800 kmý for Armenia. In fact, this  agreement can be considered a cornerstone for peace, but the problem  is that for example I, after this agreement, reconfirmed it publicly,  and I reconfirm also now our commitment to this agreement, but  Azerbaijani position in this regard is not very clear. And this  situation may also demonstrate which party is interested in this  military escalation. In the other hand, I have to say that the  illegal blockade of the Lachin Corridor and the continuation of the  humanitarian crisis in Nagorno Karabakh is having a very negative  influence on the peace process, and the sincerity is becoming  questionable. I am not even saying that in the context of the  agreements that I mentioned, it is very important to consider the  security and right of Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh and having an  international mechanism for Baku-Stepanakert dialogue.

Question: There are a number of different interpretations of  Armenia's position. A question to clarify. Is your recognition of the  international recognized entire territory of Azerbaijan contingent on  a peace deal, or do you recognize Nagorno Karabakh even before a  peace treaty is signed?

Answer: Our agreement with Azerbaijan is that Armenia and Azerbaijan,  as I said, mutually recognize each other's territorial integrity:  29.800 kmý and 86.600 kmý. After this agreement in a press conference  in Yerevan I was asked by a journalist if the 86.600 kmý of  Azerbaijan includes Nagorno Karabakh, I answered yes, it includes  also Nagorno Karabakh. But I also want to say that this does not mean  at all that we give Azerbaijan the mandate to carry out ethnic  cleansing or genocide against the people of Nagorno Karabakh. This is  the reason that part of this agreement is establishing mechanisms to  address the rights and security of Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh, and  especially to build a reliable and meaningful Baku- Stepanakert  dialogue.

Question: Do you genuinely believe now that a negotiated settlement  can ensure security and rights for the Karabakh Armenians, and are  you facing any pressure from the international community to accept a  deal that could lead to the exodus of the Karabakh Armenians?

Answer: I know that such talks are being spread. I don't know, or  maybe I can guess who spread them, but talking about exiting Nagorno  Karabakh means agreeing with what I said: ethnic cleansing or forced  removal of the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh, because these people  are living in their homes. When we are speaking about ethnic  cleansing, the tool for that does not need to be physical  extermination of people.  Any genocide has two parts: one part is the  massacre, the other part is forced exile. I have to say that there  are some such talks, but there is no such agenda. Moreover, the  representatives of the international community are very clear, they  are saying that the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh should be able to  stay in their homes in Nagorno Karabakh without fear or persecution,  they should have the opportunity to live in dignity, security and  welfare.

Question: In the worst case scenario, if the international community  fails to mediate a deal you would like to see, have you thought of,  for example, humanitarian evacuation of the Karabakh Armenians? Is  there any contingency planning your Government has done, if another  conflict breaks out.

Answer: We should do everything to avoid that conflict. I think that  the international attention that is now focused Nagorno Karabakh, the  presence of peacekeepers in Nagorno Karabakh, this should be able to  become sufficient mechanisms in order for the Armenians of Nagorno  Karabakh to be able to live in their homes with dignity and security.  Moreover, I consider the discussion of this topic useless and also  dangerous, because those who circulate such talks they try to bring  new agendas to the table that might mean internationally legitimating  the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Armenians of Nagorno  Karabakh, whoever manages to escape from Nagorno Karabakh, good for  them, whoever does not manage will be subjected to genocide. This  type of ideas, the progress of such ideas, in my assessment, are  indirectly encouraging the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh to be  subjected to ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Question: Over the last few days, maybe over the last week or week  and a half, your government has taken extraordinary steps to build  bridges with the West. You have sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine for  the first time, as Russia steps up its strikes against the civilian  infrastructure, your First Lady has been to Kyiv, who was received  very well, you have recalled your representative from the CSTO, you  have invited US soldiers to come and stage peacekeeping exercises  with Armenian Armed Forces. Does this represent a step away from  Russia, and is this a kind of "Yerevan's spring"?

Answer: Spring in Yerevan starts in March and ends in May. By the  way, summer comes in Yerevan earlier than usual. Every year we have  spring, summer, fall and winter like any other country in this  climate zone.  But you mentioned about building bridges with the  West. We do not need to build bridges, because these bridges have  always been there, starting with that we have launched a strategic  dialogue with the United States, which started long ago, and we have  had joint military exercises in the past as well. As for Ukraine,  what happened is a humanitarian step, there is no need to politicize  that, because if anyone thinks that at any point we have been  indifferent to any human tragedy, or we had any political  calculations to express sympathy for human tragedy, this is not the  right approach. We have always discussed how we can react. In this  case we had this occasion that the First Lady of Ukraine organized an  event, which fits in the logic of the association of the First Ladies  and Gentlemen. My wife has quite actively and quite a long time been  involved in these processes. This was just a part of this working  agenda.

When it comes to our relations with Russia and the CSTO, here we are  fully transparent. What are the problems, what are the issues there?  We have spoken about this and will continue to speak both publicly  and at the working level. This conversation, of course, is contingent  to the state interest of the Republic of Armenia. We are guided by  the state interests of Armenia. Therefore, I do not want and it  cannot be so that Armenia is viewed in the role of a proxy. Indeed,  the Republic of Armenia has very serious security challenges, but we  see the addressing of the security challenges through strengthening  our sovereignty, our independence. And as in the past, today and also  in the future we will do everything to ensure our sovereignty, our  independence, our security.

But conceptually, I want to share an idea with you and your audience:  in general, when it comes to geopolitical centers, our relations with  them are very important and decisive. I reiterate, we have never  declined and we will never decline any agenda of establishing  relations with any geopolitical center based on our state interests.  But on the other hand, I and my political team, or my political team  and me, are in harmony in this regard, and I think that our society  is more and more saying the following: if we want to have a lasting,  eternal statehood, first of all we need to take very serious steps to  settle our relations with our neighbors.

The model that we will have problems with our neighbors and will have  to invite other to protect us in those problems, no matter who these  others are, is a vulnerable model, because these others at any point,  for objective or subjective reasons, very often not wanting, very  often for solving their own issues, may not be here. Even if they  want to, they may not be able to help us. Therefore, our strategy  should be to try to maximum decrease this dependence on external  help.

But this is a theory, the implementation of which particularly in our  region is extremely difficult. We have social, psychological,  historical, geopolitical issues in our environment, in our region. By  the way, our region is a very complex region, it's one of the most  complicated regions, but in this regard, what is happening right now  and what we are doing right now is work aimed at strengthening  statehood, sovereignty, independence. And I also want to add to this  trilogy our agenda of strengthening democracy, strengthening our  security. These are interrelated, the culmination of which in the end  of the day should be the freedom and happiness of the citizens. This  is the agenda that right now is guiding us to take steps and measures  that are not easy, are not easily understood, and which are by and  large criticized. We are resolute to share this agenda with our  citizens, so that they can understand all the motivations behind our  actions.

Question: You talked about independence, you talked about statehood.  But when you came to power, you inherited a country where Russia has  a monopoly on the railways, you have Russian armed forces, Russian  border guards, you have Gazprom with a monopoly of energy supply. Do  you think that gaining real and lasting independence means moving  away from that relationship, where Russia has a monopoly on your  security, on your energy system, and many other aspects.

Answer: In general, I think that today Gazprom is supplying energy  not only to the Republic of Armenia. It is supplying gas also to  several other countries. These are factors, the role of which, of  course, should not be underestimated, but should not be overestimated  either, because yes, gas is important for the economy, for  everything. But again, independence, sovereignty and statehood are  for the goal of not being dependent on one factor, be it gas or any  other factor. And I think that when it comes to gas and independence,  it's not right to place these two on the same level.

Question: What I am saying is that countries like Moldova, which is  comparable to your country, they have taken a course, which Russia  sees as pro-Western. Russia has used energy supplies to blackmail  them, I am talking more generally about Russia's unparalleled  influence on your country, in terms of the Russian peacekeepers.

Answer: Such a situation has emerged as a result of the assessment of  the security needs of Armenia. I do not want to underestimate any  factor you mentioned. But I already said that I think our task is to  settle the relations in our region in a way to minimize the need for  any external support. We need to agree that this is not an easy task,  but on the other hand, by defining this issue we have reached a point  where we need to answer ourselves if we want to have an independent  country.

If we want to have an independent, sovereign country, and we do want,  we need to have ways, solutions and developments over those issues. I  reiterate, by maximally avoiding finding ourselves in the center of  West-East, North-South clashes. You mentioned the monopoly of Russian  influence, in this period, since our independence, we have developed  very serious and natural relations with the United States, which have  gained a nature of strategic dialogue since 2019.

We have the Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement with the  EU, we have always had deep relations with the Islamic Republic of  Iran, with Georgia. And now we want to settle our relations with  Azerbaijan and Turkey. And here we are facing challenges, because the  entire burden of the previous period is a problem that now we need to  manage. We need flexibility, wisdom, we need to be sober for this.   We also need to understand that this process contains very serious  risks, and this is exactly what we are trying to do. But again, it is  very important for us to define our goal. There are things that we  are doing, but some of the citizens of the Republic of Armenia may  perceive it as treason, others consider it as the correct policy, a  third group of citizens may be still following us to be able to  clarify their position, attitude towards us. Our policy is for the  sake of having an independent state, according to the rules known to  the real, modern world.

Question: Do you feel that you are getting the support you would like  from the EU, from the US, for supporting Armenia to increase its  sovereignty, its independence? Is there anything you would like to  receive from the EU, from the US that you are not receiving, such as  military exports, security guarantees?

Answer: Of course, support and assistance is never to much,  especially for countries like Armenia. But on the other hand, I do  not want and cannot act like an ungrateful. Because I consider, for  example, the deployment of the civilian mission by the EU along the  Armenian-Azerbaijani border quite a serious support, for which I  constantly thank our partners. The EU and the United States support  us also in addressing the democratic reform agenda. But again, I  cannot say that the support and help we are receiving are sufficient  to serve our tasks and agendas. But on the other hand, we are  actively working with all our partners to make our positions more  clear for them and get more support as a result.

Question: When you sit down across the table with president Aliyev in  Brussels, in Washington or in Moscow, do you feel like this is a man  negotiating with you in good faith?

Answer: You know I would not like to publicly discuss the negotiation  atmosphere. The fact is that we do not have yet an atmosphere of  confidence, because had we have this atmosphere of confidence, a lot  of issues would not be in the situation they are now. But what is my  reaction to that? To continue to work, to continue to work more  consistently, try to find solutions, try to find ways for progress.  All in all, what's the main problem without delving into details? The  main problem is as in the past, Azerbaijan continues to apply the  policy of force or threat to use force. This is greatly complicating  the situation and I think it is the main obstacle for ensuring future  progress. And in this regard, I think that the international  community and the forces that are interested in peace and stability  in our region, should exactly support the Republic of Armenia in this  matter, support the efforts to establish peace in our region.

Question: Do you think the Western mediators, when they talk about  effective negotiations, and at the same time it seems that nothing is  really good, the military situation continues to evolve, firefights  continue. Do you think there is naivety around the talks? Do you  think the talks and reality are on different tracks?

Answer: In the negotiation process the mediators usually say that  they should be neutral. My response to this is the following: I say  when one of the parties is exercising force or the threat to use  force, and the other party is vulnerable when it comes to security,  then neutrality is encouraging the party which uses force or the  threat to use force. Therefore, in this situation, neutrality in its  full meaning is not really neutrality, it encourages the party that  uses force or use of force. And in this regard, in such a situation  the mediators who are acting in this logic, the mediation of these  mediators is not effective. Because the objective and constructive  function of the mediator should be to form an environment in the  negotiation process in which the interest for peace would be equal  for both parties.

Question: You talked about neutrality. After the 2020 war, Russia  made a power attempt to come and become a security guarantor. There  is a Russian-Turkish monitoring center, I don't know what happened to  that. Today I was talking to a young woman from Stepanakert, who said  that her brother is serving in the Defense Army, who says that they  are in the trenches, facing the Azerbaijani troops. She asked where  are the Russian peacekeepers, he said behind us. Do you feel let down  by Russia? Do you think Russia has done not enough to uphold the 2020  agreements, when it has undertaken to keep Lachin Corridor open, to  maintain the contact line that existed. Do you think Russia has  failed as a security guarantor?

Answer: You know it is obvious that after November 9, 2020, the  security situation has sharply changed in Nagorno Karabakh:  violations of the line of contact, invasions into the territory of  Nagorno Karabakh. We have had a case when a person doing agricultural  work was killed by an Azerbaijani sniper in the presence of a Russian  peacekeeper. There are obstacles for agricultural work, and finally  the blockade of the Lachin Corridor, and the humanitarian crisis in  Nagorno Karabakh.

All of these were supposed to be in the sphere of responsibility of  the Russian peacekeepers under the trilateral declaration of November  9, 2020, and in this regard, as far as these issues exist, yes, the  Russian peacekeepers have failed their mission. But on the other  hand, I cannot say that if the Russian peacekeepers had not been in  Nagorno Karabakh, the situation in Nagorno Karabakh now would have  been better. I want to be clear on this nuance that I want us to  understand well and very correctly, I think both of the approaches  are correct.

Question: Why do you think the Russian peacekeeping mission has  failed? Is it incompetence on the one hand, preoccupation with the  war in Ukraine, or is this a deliberate decision to avoid angering  Azerbaijan and Turkey? Has Russia chosen to remain aside, or it has  just failed?

Answer: You know I think both factors could have certain role,  because as a result of the events in Ukraine the capabilities of  Russia have changed, but on the other hand I think that there is the  second factor that you mentioned. In my assessment, both factors  exist.

Question: Over the short time you were in office, you woke up to the  news that a war has started in your country. You sent young boys to  the battle to defend their country. Many world leaders have alive  shared experience, and one of them is president Volodymyr Zelenskyy  of Ukraine. I want to ask if you have any message to share with him?

Answer: You know, when I meet with Zelenskyy, I will personally share  with him. I don't think it's a good idea for leaders of countries to  send messages to each other through interviews.

Question: I understand, that's fair enough.

Answer: By the way, Zelenskyy was present at the last meeting of the  European Political Community in Chisinau, Moldova, and I was there  too. We exchanged some ideas, and we do have occasions to exchange  messages. And really, I do not think it's a good way to send messages  in distance. We also send messages to each other on different  occasions. Recently, I congratulated him on Independence Day of  Ukraine.

You know, one thing in general can be said on that topic: war is a  very bad thing, and when in 2020 the war started, there was a lot of  talk about what I should have done to avoid the war, which is a very  correct and legitimate question, after which the war in Ukraine  started. And I was looking at that situation and asking myself, what  should the leaders of Russia and Ukraine have done to avoid war?  Everyone knows that war is a very bad thing, everyone without  exception.

In all cases, everything must be done to avoid war, and this is also  the reason why, regardless of all the complications, regardless of  the lack of optimism, we have adopted and continue to adhere to the  peace agenda, we continue to adhere to the agreements, and we hope  that Azerbaijan, in turn, will finally express its commitment to the  agreements reached at international platforms.

Question: You have had undoubted success in reducing corruption,  strengthening institutions. This is the freest country for press,  freedom of speech in the region. Could this lead Armenia to the point  where Armenia might have the same aspirations as for example Georgi,  to join the EU, to have closer relations with NATO. Do you think this  is the course you would like to see for your country?

Answer: Peace is first, first and most important is peace, because  peace is both a goal and means. I spoke about the sovereignty of  states, I spoke about democracy, but democracy, sovereignty and peace  are in the end of the day to serve the welfare, security and  happiness of the people. This is my perception that we need to do  everything so that the Republic of Armenia is in peace, is a country  of welfare, where people can build their welfare with their creative  work and feel happy.

Question: Is this a one way trip for Armenia towards democracy and  peace, or you have the concern that if the crisis around Nagorno  Karabakh worsens, the opposition could find more support for the idea  that in this situation it would be correct to go after Russia, to  join the union state in order to get security guarantees? Have you  concerns that if West and democracy are perceived failed, Armenia may  go back to where it was before?

Answer: I think in general the question whether democracy is able to  ensure security is hanging in the skies, in the political skies of  Armenia. A lot of things depend on the answer to this question. I  really hope and I am convinced that we should do everything to ensure  a positive answer to this question and this is one of the most  important components of the peace agenda.

Question: And the final question. In 2020 you went through the war,  you saw large number of young people buried, you spoke with their  families. Shortly after the war, your father died, I am sorry about  that.  How has this constant fear of a new war affect you, your  mental health, your well-being, your job?

Answer: It is very difficult not to get emotionally burnt out,  because very often when I communicate with the relatives of the  fallen soldiers, it's clear that those conversations are not easy,  but it's not easy not only for them, but also for myself, because a  couple of times I had the occasion to get sincere with them and tell  them about my own perception, I have told them that each of them has  lost one relative, a son, a soldier, but I have lost thousands. And  there is no exaggeration in what I am saying. But on the other hand,  if we are unable to act beyond emotions in public administration,  managing the country in these high state positions, no one will  benefit from this. It will not be better for the country, it will not  be better for the fallen soldiers, who, in my perception, fell for  the Republic of Armenia to live, and the Republic of Armenia shall  live, shall develop, shall be democratic, prosperous and peaceful.