Monday, January 23 2023 22:44

ArmInfo.State Minister of Artsakh Republic Ruben Vardanyan gave an interview to BBC HARDtalkprogramme. The interview in English is below.

Stephen Sackur - Ruben Vardanyan in Nagorno-Karabakh, welcome to our  HARDtalk.Thank you.Mr. Vardanyan, maybe our HARDtalk audience may not  know very much about Nagorno-Karabakh. You are the State Minister in  a tiny territory of some 120000 people and right now, you have an  urgent crisis because your land route out to Armenia is currently  blockaded. What is the situation for the people living in your  territory today? 

Ruben Vardanyan - First, I would like to thank you for this  interview. It's important for the world to know what's happening in a  locked out territory where, 120000 people living in their homeland  for thousands of years, for the last 35 years have been fighting for  their independence.  And 38 days, since December 12, Azerbaijan's  so-named ecoactivists blocked the road and with the support of  Azerbaijani state now they control the road, and we don't get  anything but from the Red Cross and the Russian peacekeepers. We have  30,000 children, it's winter, electricity is limited; there is  practically no gas now, and food, medicine, and gasoline would not be  on our territory without the help of the Red Cross and the Russian  peacekeepers.

Stephen Sackur - So, the Red Cross is making sure that some medicines  get through, but I noticed that the authorities implemented a  rational system where buckwheat, sugar, rice, and cooking oil are  made available. But it seems to me if this continues, your territory  won't be viable for very long, will it? People are going to suffer,  and this cannot continue.

Ruben Vardanyan - Firstly, the Red Cross is only one or two trucks,  and 15 000 is quite a limited quantity of medicine or food they can  bring, including the Russian peacekeepers; there is no illusion about  how much they deliver.  Secondly, you don't know well that the  Armenians in Artsakh are strong people. We've been living in here  thousands of years, and we are strongly committed to stay in our  homeland. As I said, for 35 years, we have been fighting and  defending our territory; we believe in our values and our system.  With all the difficulties we are facing, I believe that people will  stay strong and committed to our homeland.

Stephen Sackur - You just referred to your territory as Artsakh, I  should clarify that while you in your territory refer to it as  Artsakh, the Azerbaijan's government calls it Nagorno-Karabakh, as  indeed does the international community, so I just want to be clear  about that. The biggest confusion to me about what is happening right  now is that you have around 2000 Russian military personnel on your  territory as supposed peacekeepers, now why are they not opening the  road to make sure that supplies can get through?

Ruben Vardanyan - Before answering this question, I would like to say  that if you look through the history books in Azerbaijan Soviet  Republic of the 1980s, you will find the same name of Artsakh  mentioned as Armenian territory.So, I am not saying something new, it  already existed in the Soviet time, in Azerbaijani history books at  schools. But let's go back to your question.

First, people need to understand it's only 2000 peacekeepers, and  they have limited mandate to use weapons, andit's ecoactivists, and  civilians who closed the road, formally. That's why without delusion,  it's a small contingent of soldiers, only light weapons, and they  have no right to shoot.  That's why, for any peacekeepers, it's  always very difficult to interfere between the two sides if the  conflict is going on.

Stephen Sackur - But the truth is, Mr. Vardanyan, that right now  Vladimir Putin has much bigger problems on his plate. The invasion of  Ukraine has led to a war, which is sucking up resources in Moscow,  and the last thing, Putin frankly wants to do is getting involved in  a conflict in Nagorno Karabakh. That's the truth. It leaves you much  weaker, doesn't it? Because Russia's support is not just forthcoming.

Ruben Vardanyan - First, I don't know what's happening in his  decision- making. But we have a limitation: on November 9, 2020,  Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Russia signed a document, where the number  of the soldiers was limited by the Azerbaijani side, that's why I  don't know what you are talking about, maybe they have sent, or have  not, but today, we are following the document we signed, which  Azerbaijan today fully violates.  Because they guaranteed open road  for Armenians living in Artsakh without any control, and now they are  in full violation.

Stephen Sackur - Yeah, I understand that there was misunderstanding  involving the Armenian government, the Azerbaijani government, but  what's interesting to me is that the Armenian government led by the  Prime Minister NikolPashinyan is now very critical of Moscow, saying  that the Russian peacekeepers are failing in their duties. But you  interestingly are being much less critical about Moscow, why? 

Ruben Vardanyan - You know I advise you to come here with us and you  will understand how it's important when you are surrounded by a state  of 10 million people with lot of money, lot of weapons and we have  only 120000 people with 30000 kids, which need to be safe, and we  have 2000 Russian soldiers. Do you want piss them off? I want to ask  you this question - are you ready to piss off the people who stay  with you in this situation?

Stephen Sackur - Well, I'm here in London. You are in Nagorno-  Karabakh, and the reality for you is that what you have to deal with,  and it seems right now that not only other Russians are not helping  you, but your relationship with Armenia and, in particular, with  Prime Minister Pashinyan is becoming increasingly toxic. The Yerevan  government doesn't seem to have a working relationship with you.

Ruben Vardanyan - I don't know about this information. By the way, in  our country, person number one - the president - is always in good  contact with the prime minister; I don't know what you are talking  about, and this is a speculation, which I am not sure makes sense to  have reference in our conversation.

Stephen Sackur - I think it is important to look at your background  and why you are sitting in Nagorno-Karabakh today. You're a wealthy  man, who worked at least one billion dollars thanks to a business  career in Moscow which coincidedwith Vladimir Putin's rise. Then  clearly the two of you are quite close. Why did you decide last year  to renounce your Russian citizenship which requires special  permission from Putin and remove yourself from Russia and decide to  live in Nagorno- Karabakh? Why did you do that?

Ruben Vardanyan - First, I started my business in 1991 with the  35,000 dollars of American investors, and with my partners, I built  the best investment bank in this region, bringing plenty of investors  and biggest companies to Russia. I made business in England, and in  the United States. I have a board membership in thirty different  countries, and I've been doing philanthropy and socials in many  places. That's why I think your conclusion about my closeness with  Vladimir Putin is not right because I've been working with many-many  people in power and in different countries, also in the private  sector and that is why:

Stephen Sackur - You know that the Organized Crime and Corruption  Reporting Project and the Navalny Anti-Corruption Foundation have  both accused you, let's put it this way, of doing dodgy business  dealings in the past. Now you have never been charged with anything  but, nonetheless, there are allegations that you have been part of  the oligarch system that Vladimir Putin, you know, watched over and  that's partly an explanation of your great wealth.

Ruben Vardanyan - Look, this was published four years ago, and it is  four years that I have kept my position in many-many international  organizations, which confirms that people who know the truth, people  who know me personally, understand what this is all allegations  without any proof because no legal case in any place, in any country  ever happened. Moreover, there are allegations about king Charles,  about George Clooney and many others of my colleagues and friends who  have worked with me in different projects, like the Prime Minister of  Singapore Lee Kuan Yew and many other people which I had the  privilege to know and work with.That is why, with all my respect to  journalists who did their work, that allegation was just a  publication without any proof. Secondly, the financial institution I  was running at that time had trillions of dollars of turnover with  their hundreds of thousands of clients, and blaming Ruben Vardanyan  for doing something was like blaming J.P. Morgan or the City Bank for  doing something this way. Of course, being responsible, but not doing  it themselves. I think this is really manipulation, and you are using  this information again: 

Stephen Sackur - Well, I am simply reflecting the records, and you  are, of course, welcomed to challenge anything I say. But the truth  is that the Azerbaijanis, in particular, say that you are... I am  quoting here political analyst ElkhanSahinoglu in Baku. He says:  Ruben Vardanyan is Moscow's man in Karabakh. And the president is  preparing for you to take complete charge in Nagorno-Karabakh. Is  that your intent?

Ruben Vardanyan - You know, I thought our problem would be about  human rights, about the situation in humanitarian catastrophe. And if  you go on with all these speculations, especially Azerbaijiani side,  we can go forever. I would prefer to talk about how the 120,000  people are surviving this horrible times and pressures from the  political side or "ecoactivists." By the way, I recommend you to  check how many ecological protests have ever happened in Azerbaijan  during the last thirty years, and how many times the autocratic  regime of Aliyev allowed any opposition in Azerbaijan, not Armenians,  to say any word against him. We are talking about something I am  really surprised at. You are not touching the point of what's  happening now here, and what is the behaviour of Azerbaijan. By the  way, today EU Parliament:

Stephen Sackur - I am more than interested in talking about what is  happening, but what is happening clearly is part of the bigger  picture.  The bigger picture is that the conflict on and around your  territory, between Armenia and Azerbaijan has been going on for many  decades.  What we saw in 2020 was that the Azerbaijani military  scored a major victory, pushed Nagorno-Karabakh back, and you lost  more than two- thirds of the territory you controlled before 2020.  You now control a tiny enclave which is suffering from the economic  blockade right now, and it seems to me your only realistic option is  either to work out a political deal with Azerbaijan or for the  people, the Armenian community in Nagorno-Karabakh, to decide that  this is no longer sustainable and leave the territory. So, which is  it to be - a political deal or leave?

Ruben Vardanyan - First, let me finish. Today, EU Parliament just  approved the resolution with the strong message to president Aliyev,  requesting to lock out the road. This shows that France, the EU  Parliament, and the United States surprisingly have a common view  about this issue, which is really something special because we all  know what is the relationship between the major European countries  and Russia today. The second... 

Stephen Sackur - Mister Vardanyan, even if the blockade is lifted, my  question remains: how can your community of Nagorno-Karabakh be  viable in the long term?  Even the Government in Yerevan, the  Armenian Government says that this is no longer a territory of issue,  they are no longer making a claim to turn Nagorno-Karabakh into an  independent state or part of Armenia. They say in Yerevan that it is  simply a matter of rights, that it is a question of negotiated  guaranteed security and human rights for the Armenian community  inside your territory. But the indication is that in the long run you  will be part of the Azerbaijani sovereign state. Do you accept that?

Ruben Vardanyan - Artsakh people, Armenians living in Artsakh, in  1988 when was Soviet times, said we will never be part of Azerbaijan.  They fight for their freedom, and they made all the rightlegal steps.

Today, we are addressing a  clear question to the world: do we,  people of Artsakh, living in a state, which violates all the human  rights even of their own people,have the right for  self-determination?How can we live in a country where one family has  been ruling the country for 44 years out of 104 years  of the  existence of Azerbaijan (first as part of the Soviet Union, and then  as an independent  republic), where there is no right for the  Azerbaijani people not to mention the Armenians?

How do you see the possibility for an ethnic minority, the way they  treat us, to get any right, to get any defense? For us, this is not a  question about do we want it or not, we do not see any chance. By the  way, in this blockade, yesterday's incident was the simplest. The  children, separated from families, were unfortunately "blocked" in  Armenia and couldn't come back to their homes; after six weeks, the  Russian peacekeepers tried to bring them back to Artsakh, but the  children were stopped and checked by the Azerbaijanis, and were  psychologically attacked. Xenophobia is so strong, that's why... 

Stephen Sackur - I want to be clear about this, sorry to interrupt  but are you saying that for you, and of course, frankly many people  say that right now you are running things in Nagorno-Karabakh, you  are in no way prepared to have any sort of negotiation or a dialogue  with president Aliyev and the Azerbaijan government?

Ruben Vardanyan - No, we are ready for negotiations, we are ready for  negotiations if the Azerbaijani side understands the negotiations  between the two sides.Because what we said from the first day of  requesting independence was that we understand and accept we will be  living side by side, but we will be separate territories, and  separate states; there will be separate rules and laws because we are  a democratic country, here four presidents were elected; we do not  see ourselves as part of Azerbaijan, but we respect that we will be  living in the same region, and we need to find a way despite all the  difficulties to find a solution that will be acceptable for both  sides, because...

Stephen Sackur - So, I take the matter that you fundamentally  disagree with the government in Yerevan, who said it is now simply a  question of negotiating the right sort of deal for your people,  frankly, inside an Azerbaijani state. They say it's a question of  rights, human rights and security rights for your people being  guaranteed, but they say it's no longer an issue of territory or  sovereignty.

Ruben Vardanyan - First, the Armenian government, the leader of  Armenia has said whatever decision the leaders of Artsakh make, we  will follow their choice. Second, we got clear messages from France,  the United States, and Russia, who also see that this issue is not  closed, the page is not turned. That is why, despite all the rhetoric  of Azerbaijan, due to the international community, the UN  discussions, and the UN security council, it became clear that  something is not over because we have a right to self- determination  because ethnic the UN charters restrict ethnic cleansing.Despite all  the speculations from Azerbaijan, the story is not over, we believe  we have the right for independence, we have the right of living in  our homeland; most of the people who live in Artsakh understand the  difficulties that we are facing, they are ready to stay and defend  our home.  Although we are small, we are big. 

Stephen Sackur - Yeah, you say it's not over, but a big factor in all  of this is Russia. For decades, Armenia has relied on Russia for  military support. I just wonder what you have drawn in terms of  lessons from Putin's invasion in Ukraine; do you regard that war  first as something you should condemn, and do you also see it has  dangerous lessons for Armenia?

Ruben Vardanyan - Look, I am now the State Minister of a smaller  republic where 120 000 people are suffering because of an immense  attack from Azerbaijan. And I am responsible to defend my children  who live here, and my nation, and whatever needs to defend them I  will do it. That's why I want to answer this question the way that I  would say that whatever is necessary to save Artsakh, I will do it.

Stephen Sackur - But that's not an answer at all. I just asked you  whether you will condemn Putin's invasion of Ukraine. 

Ruben Vardanyan - And I answer you saying whatever is necessary to  defend my people, whatever will be right for them in this situation,  to stay silent because I believe whatever my answer about the  position of Russia, about France, about the United States will damage  the opportunity to get international support, that will be wrong for  me to comment. That's why with all my regret, what's happening in  different conflicts, not only in Ukraine, but in Yemen, in Syria and  in many other places in the world, I care only about what is  happening to my people with blockade for thirty days with no  electricity, with no gas.

Stephen Sackur - The thing is you are very much out of state with  many Armenians living in Armenia because they are worried by the  implications by Putin's invading Ukraine.I am going to quote you  Benyamin Poghosyan, the head of the Centre for Political and Economic  Strategic Studies in Yerevan. He says: "It is becoming obvious that  we can no longer rely on Russia. Even if Russia gets out of the  Ukraine war in one piece, they will to try to include Armenia in a  sort of union state with Belarus, and that is not something we want."  Do you want that? Do you think that Armenia's fate and future lies  with Russia, Putin's Russia? 

Ruben Vardanyan - I don't want to talk about Armenia, we are a  separate country. I am talking about Artsakh. Artsakh will not be  part of Azerbaijan, this is clear.

Stephen Sackur - Are you happy for a long-term reliance on Vladimir  Putin?

Ruben Vardanyan - What do you mean?

Stephen Sackur - Well, I mean it's simple, it seems to me that you  are saying we are now quite distant politically from Yerevan, from  the Armenian government. So, your only guarantor, your only frank  hope for survival, is Vladimir Putin.

Ruben Vardanyan - That's not true. President Macron clearly announced  and made great efforts to support Artsakh. By the way, the speaker of  the French Senate also made the same statement. The US ambassador  said recently that we'll be corporate with Russia trying to find a  solution to help Artsakh get out of this situation. That's why you  are manipulating a little because the western biggest country, like  France, the United States, also clearly send the message that we care  about what's happening here. 

Stephen Sackur - You know there are people inside Nagorno-Karabakh,  in your small community, which is just over 100000 people, who think  that your time as chief minister, state minister has been a disaster.  Bella Lalayansays that all you have done is to start more trouble and  jeopardize the security of people. Some want you out, and they want  you out now. 

Ruben Vardanyan - It's normal, people have different opinions. I am a  happy person to be here with the people of Artsakh. I walk in the  streets every day, I see them laugh :

Stephen Sackur - The point is that many of the people in Nagorno-  Karabakh think you are an outsider. You came from Moscow, you made a  fortune in Russia, you were not born in Nagorno-Karabakh, you were  born in Yerevan. Many people in Nagorno-Karabakh wonder if you truly  have their interests at heart.

Ruben Vardanyan - You can look at my background. My grandmother lived  in Artsakh.  I made around 89 projects in Artsakh during the past  twenty years; my son served in army here, my daughter was here; that  is why it is all speculations which, of course, exist in all the  places, and some people make dirty stories without looking at the  real story. I came here on September 2, 2022, and I said that I will  be like any other person. I didn't pretend to get any position. The  president offered me this position, but I am happy to stayhere  without any position, and I will stay here. I don't care whether I am  the state minister or not. I am here with the people who need my  support, not because I am rich, but because we want people outside  Artsakh to realize that Artsakh is a key not only for them, but also  for the entire Armenian nation. Thousands of years, Artsakh is the  DNA keeper of the Armenian people. 

Stephen Sackur - Just to be clear and sum up because we are running  out of time. You are going nowhere, is that the message?

Ruben Vardanyan - I will stay with my people here, whatever we face,  we will face together, yes!

Stephen Sackur - Ruben Vardanyan, I thank you very much, indeed, for  joining me on HARDtalk.

Ruben Vardanyan - Thank you.